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Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction Print E-mail
Posted by George Claassen   
Friday, 18 September 2009


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by George Claassen, Director, Sceptic South Africa

 

Image
The Laerskool Stellenbosch
Many South African public (state) schools are blatantly flouting the National Policy on Religion in Education (as published in the Government Gazette 25459 of 12 September 2003, notice 1307) by openly using Christian religious indoctrination to influence pliable and vulnerable children in South Africa.

Three schools are examples of this pressure on children to participate in Christian religious ceremonies, but we have countless examples of many others just as guilty of this illegal practice: Stellenbosch Laerskool, Louw Geldenhuys Laerskool in Linden, Johannesburg, and Baysville Spesiale Skool in East London come to mind.

The National Policy on Religion in Education encompasses the following broad principles, and any school and principal or teacher ignoring or contravening these regulations, are guilty of contravening the National Education Act.

  • A public (state) school must be secular and may not pursue and force down a religious ethos;

  • A school may not practise the religious apartheid of our past but should rather advance integration of the community at large;

  • Reading from the Bible (or any other religious holy book) and praying in general class-time is illegal;

  • Sectarian teaching of a specific religion is illegal and a majority adherence of one religion may not lead to the exclusion of other religions or a secular world view.

Yet at Stellenbosch Laerskool, Louw Geldenhuys and Baysville, East London, classes and many school ceremonies are opened with readings from the Bible, praying to the Christian god, at the exclusion of children from other religious communities or secular world views getting an equal opportunity to practice their principles.

An example: at Stellenbosch Laer a child asked her teacher why we hold cancer weeks, HIV/Aids week etc. but not a week for Jesus, as her mother pointed out. The next thing the school instituted a Jesus week (17-20 March 2009) in which children would learn about God’s grace in their lives. (Clearly only the Christian God’s grace).

The school told children: “Every learner, teacher and worker will get a yellow ribbon on Monday to wear for the whole week (totally voluntary). The idea is that everyone will shine their light for Jesus.” (Elke leerder, opvoeder en werker kry Maandag ’n geel strikkie om te dra vir die hele week - heeltemal vrywillig. Die gedagte is dat almal jou liggie helder sien skyn vir Jesus.)

On the Wednesday of the week children would have taken part in holy communion during which wine would have been substituted by grape juice or other cool drinks.

And so it goes on. Only because parents from a secular world view complained about this open contravention of the National Policy on Religion in Education, the school cancelled the Jesus Week. With regard to the yellow ribbons being worn voluntary, these protesting parents pointed out the following:

“The yellow naturally reminds one of the yellow stars Jews were forced to wear during the Second World War in Nazi Germany so that they could be recognised as the rejects of society, although this time the process is reversed so that the ‘good ones’ among us carry The Mark. Learners, teachers and workers who do not want to wear their religious faith on their sleeves, will, naturally voluntarily, get to bear the consequential disrespect. In contravention of the National Policy on Religion in Education the ‘marked’ will immediately be recognised and will thus NOT be protected against ignorance, stereotyping, caricaturisation, and blackballing.”

Furthermore, these parents correctly emphasised in a letter to the principal, Mr. Hawkie de Villiers, and the school parenting body: “What do we have here: naive Christianity or school-supported fascism? This planned ‘ribbon for Jesus’ activity is in direct conflict with the school’s task to protect young children against religious discrimination and coercion.”

Because of these complaints, the religious policy at the school was put on hold until a new governing body was elected at the beginning of 2009. Since then the illegal practice has again been taken up. On the school’s website these clear contraventions of national policy is there for all to see (http://www.lstellen.wcape.school.za/gedragskode.htm). I only want to emphasise a few examples of this blatant disrespect for the laws of the country and the bad example set to young children:

“Die skool sal 'n Christelike karakter hê en dit sal in alle aktiwiteite uitgeleef word” (my emphasis);

Laerskool Stellenbosch stel dit ten doel om: Deur woord en daad Christelike lewenswaardes vir leerders te moduleer om sodoende 'n lewensingesteldheid te kweek” (my emphasis).

This is just one example of daily contraventions of the National Policy on Religion in Education at Stellenbosch Laerskool and where the wishes and warnings of these parents are still being ignored and in fact ridiculed.

In a letter to the school governing body a groups of parents emphasised the following, still being ignored by the continuing religious policy at the school:

Paragraph 6.1 of the National Policy on Religion in Education clearly indicates that school assemblies must reflect the multi-religious nature of the whole of South Africa: "Where a religious observance is organised, as an official part of the school day, it must accommodate and reflect the multi-religious nature of the country in an appropriate manner."

“It may not ONLY be Christian,” the parents emphasised. “Does the school governing body also understand it in this way? It means that the practicing of religious rituals during class time may not take place in general classes. Please read the national policy on this carefully.”

The parents also quoted from section 6.3 of the National Policy on Religion in Education:

“A school assembly has the potential for affirming and celebrating unity in diversity, and should be used for this purpose. Public schools may not violate the religious freedom of pupils and teachers by imposing religious uniformity on a religiously diverse school population in school assemblies. Where a religious observance is included in a school assembly, pupils may be excused on grounds of conscience from attending a religious observance component, and equitable arrangements must be made for these pupils (my emphasis).

Stellenbosch Laerskool continues to ignore these regulations. Teachers still use class-time to teach Christianity and pray to a Christian creator-god.

Image
Mr Arrie Genis
At Louw Geldenhuys Laerskool in Linden, Johannesburg, similar contraventions take place. On its website, the principal, Mr. Arrie Genis, writes in a message to parents the following (http://www.llg.co.za/sake.html):

“Deur middel van die onderwysproses leer die kind homself ken en ontdek hy talente wat hy in diens van sy Skepper en sy medemens kan aanwend.”

And: “Ons kinders is ons allerkosbaarste vreugde, deur God self aan ons toevertrou.” (my emphasis. One can ask: who is this Skepper – Creator – and God? The Christian God, Muslim God, or the God of any other religion? And how does the child distinguish between these gods?)

Genis recently openly and sarcastically rejected the complaints by parents against Christian religious instruction at the school: Genis used freedom of association as an excuse why he could flout the national religious instruction at school policy.

“Furthermore, I have news for you: all school ceremonies by the Laerskool Louw Geldenhuys are opened by teachers, ministers and even learners by means of ‘lay’ preachings, as approved by the parents and the school’s management body... I am definitely not ashamed of our (religious instruction policy) and will not change that.” (my emphasis: even children are used as religious propaganda- fodder. Again it reminds one of Nazi Germany where the youth were utilised to get the message of the Führer across).

Recently a group of parents at Baysville Spesiale Skool in East London complained to me as director of Sceptic South Africa that regular “altar calls” are held every Friday morning. It is virtually compulsory for children to attend these and Monday and Friday gatherings in the school hall where Christian evangelism is preached to them. Children refusing to attend, are naturally seen as outcasts and treated as such.

Every day the staff meeting is opened with Christian prayers, despite the fact that one of the teachers is a Hindu and some are atheists or secularly inclined.

Some teachers start their classes every day in one hall with a Christian religious ceremony and this leads to the children in their classes only starting with real school subjects at 08:45 or even nine ’o clock: nearly an hour after the school has officially opened.

Just one example of the outrageous things told to the children: “Isn't it ‘strange’ that most tsunami's and other natural disasters happen in those countries where ‘they still worship idols’? Well, there might have been a few believers that have perished too, but it's O.K., because ‘then they're with God’”.

Sceptic South Africa is considering laying criminal charges against these schools unless these policies are immediately halted and the schools adhere to the National Policy on Religion in Education. We are not living in Nazi Germany or the apartheid state anymore.

 

Related links:

Rapport : http://www.rapport.co.za/Content/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/2315/585ff6c44cdb49258804f36fed2abc65/19-09-2009-08-08/Hare_waai_oor_skole-godsdiens_

Eyewitness News : http://www.eyewitnessnews.co.za/articleprog.aspx?id=22337

Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/skoolbeleid?pli=1

National Policy on Religion in Education http://www.education.gov.za/dynamic/imgshow.aspx?id=2398

News24 http://www.news24.com/Content/MyNews24/YourStory/1162/30e30e98656549d0a2d2883f8f378836/21-09-2009-01-00/Religion_in_schools_Have_your_say

http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/do-we-have-freedom-of-concience-and-religion-at-public-schools/


Related Items:

 
Discuss (25 posts)

Paul Bethke
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 29 2009 22:36:51
Zhi wrote:
QUOTE:
To Paul Bethke: God's place is in the church. Nobody brings schoolwork to the church, why should God be at school?

Keep religion at home or at church.



So now we know what to teach the children because what George Claassen believes is what Moses taught the children.
The dead cannot talk to the living by any means.


You miss the point

Should children be taught to communicate with the dead?
Whether you teach them at home or at school can people communicate with the dead?

That is the point.

Read my article again.

Regards
Paul Bethke
#87
Zhi
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 29 2009 23:04:34
To Paul Bethke:

Taken note of your message, but mine (regrettably) would have to remain the same;

Religion (whether you want to talk to dead people or be taught by dead people or speak to a God) do it at your home or church. School should be for secular studies. The fact that members of the ANC speak to dead people do not bother me...as long as they do not try to let me or my child speak to their dead people.

Secondly, the Bible is a book that copied a lot of wisdom from other traditions (Egyptian, Sumerian, Persian, Roman, Greek etc). Its writings are not necessarily authentic "biblical". Point is; it is a book written by humans, for humans based upon human experience and wisdom. The God element is thrown in to give it "authority".

As a theist (on your own admission) you are still somewhat biased in favour of the Christian viewpoint, though you attempt to steer away from it. But I do appreciate that you support George Claassen's view.

Kind regards
#88

Paul Bethke
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 29 2009 23:34:01
Zhi wrote:
QUOTE:
To Paul Bethke:

Taken note of your message, but mine (regrettably) would have to remain the same;

Religion (whether you want to talk to dead people or be taught by dead people or speak to a God) do it at your home or church. School should be for secular studies. The fact that members of the ANC speak to dead people do not bother me...as long as they do not try to let me or my child speak to their dead people.





But that is precisely the point.

Transformation as the ANC call it is to accept their way of life.
Their way of life revolves around so called communication with their dead ancestors.

Now children must be told that this is not possible.

Now whether you do it at home or at the schools or at church children must be told.

Here is a common ground.

George Claassen has emphatically stated that the living cannot talk to the dead.
He has issued challengers to those who claim they can.
He must issue the same challenge to the ANC and other blacks who believe in this practice.

Now what I say again that when the black people are confronted with this fact they must stop their erroneous practices which are being flouted more and more on TV and literature.

Regards
Paul Bethke
#89

Hettie
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 30 2009 01:02:39
I agree with Sonja. We are discussing the theoretical topic of our rights not being upheld practically in public schools. We have done our homework, research and reasoning and we are atheists. We do not try to convert people to atheism and we do not hijack their own internet sites. We have the facts and we don't mind sharing it with those who are interested. We also have rights and are demanding that the laws are being upheld. We give you the facts and you decide. If we are proven wrong we will concede but so far so good. We don't just have one book, the bible, to quote from, which by the way, we know very well! Have read it many times and know the discrepancies, the cruelties, etc.
Riaan and Paul, why don't you start your own website? It's futile to get someone who have the facts and proof available to accept myths and legends.
#90

Paul Bethke
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 30 2009 07:17:17
Hello Hettie

We don't just have one book, the bible, to quote from, which by the way, we know very well! Have read it many times and know the discrepancies, the cruelties, etc.
Riaan and Paul, why don't you start your own website? It's futile to get someone who have the facts and proof available to accept myths and legends.




I respect a person who has a complete knowledge of their beliefs….That is more than can be said of many so called Christians.It is these so called that present the erroneous application of their conduct.

To have read the bible many times that is from Genesis to the book of Revelation puts you in a very special league.

The discrepancies and cruelties as you call them should be evident from your knowledge is directed at the cruelty of man against man.

The discrepancies are merely the parts of Scripture that has not yet been fulfilled.

My purpose in coming onto this website is to announce the fulfilment of these outstanding prophecies.

As you say it is futile to verbally contest proof of the validity of Scripture without the accompanying proof.

Regards,
Paul Bethke
#91
vic777
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 30 2009 07:28:38
riaan wrote:
QUOTE:
The GOD of the BIBLE is not worship out of fear ,it is by choiceThe god that is worshiped out of fear is allah.New age wants you to believe all roads lead to heaven.You deceide.


Riaan, dit is werklik stront wat jy daar praat!

Hoekom die threat van die hel as vrees nie nodig is nie?

Die hele bybel is vol vrees. Het jy dit al gelees?

Gaan lees bietjie Levitikus en Openbaring dan praat ons weer!
#92
vic777
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 30 2009 07:36:04
riaan wrote:
QUOTE:
Ons dra nog steeds die gevolge van die 60s,die"peace era" vandag is dit die new age.Hoekom het julle reels in julle huise?


Riaan, asb - hou tog net jou geloof vir jouself. Kan jy nie jou punt stel sonder om mense te probeer oortuig om in jou onsigbare vriendjie te glo nie?

Wat het die 60's te doen met enigiets?

Moraliteit - wat insluit reels by die huis - het NIKS met geloof te doen nie. Religion is a social code - van dit sluit morele reels in. Maar dit beteken nie dit kom net uit geloof uit nie.

Nie eers die opstanding is nuut nie - gaan lees oor Mithra

As jy die bybel woordeliks volg kan daar nie vrye wil wees waarvan jy so lekker gesels nie.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction."
- Blaise Pascal

"I play the song to which you must dance. To you is left the freedom of improvisation. This improvisation is what you call free will."
-Frank Herbert, "The Jesus Incident"

"One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion."
-Arthur C. Clarke

Glo in jou god - by all means - maar hou dit vir jouself.
#93
vic777
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 30 2009 07:38:28
Hettie,

Nog 'n interessante boek wat ek defnitief kan aanbeveel is "Godless" van Dan Barker. Hy was 'n evangelical preacher in Amerika wat 'n atheist geword het
#94
vic777
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 30 2009 07:39:37
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Epicurus
#95

Wayne de Villiers
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 30 2009 07:40:18
Deuteronomy 13:6-10
'If your brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife tries to secretly entice you, telling you to go and worship other gods, gods of people living near you, or far from you, or anywhere on earth, do not listen to him.'
'You must kill them. Show them no pity. And your hand must strike the first blow.'
'Then the hands of all the people. You shall stone them to death

Click here to view the above verse in the Lego bible ... it highlights a lot of the silliness in the bible.

(Home page : http://www.thebricktestament.com/)
#96
Zhi
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 30 2009 07:41:41
To Paul Bethke: I still have to encounter any black person (and I am daily in contact with a lot of them) who wants me or my child to speak to dead people. What I do find is people who have missionary zeal to convert people to theism (be it Islam or Christianity...Jewish people I encountered fortunately does not have that approach).

In Afrikaans (or dual medium) schools I find the Christian religion openly or very subtly propagated or given an unfair advantage over other "minority" religions. The isssue is not African Traditional Religions, but mostly Christianity; in any of its flavours. So trying to divert attention to what some people in the ANC might speak about is skirting the real issue and that is (especially) the Christians insistence to have their religion acknowledged as the ONLY religion in school. Children of other religions or even atheist then become "second degree" citizens. In a constitutional state that cannot be tolerated!

MORALITY IN SCHOOLS

Seeing that a lot of Christians (especially) regard this as their strongest argument if religion disappear from schools lets consider an easy option:

Rule 1 - No drugs or alcohol at school. Does such a rule need any motivation? The desert god in his first Egyptian incarnation never considered a rule casted in stone against alcohol abuse (see the Ten Commandments). We all know of the social evil that alcohol abuse leads to.

Rule 2 - No hate speech (constitutional imperative and needs no illumination).

Rule 3 - No sex at school. It is an educational facility, not a "love paradise". (Good secular rule).

Rule 4 - respect the property of others. Since the first caveman made his/her appearance this was a good rule. Otherwise there will be chaos. Moses wrote these rules on the stone tables to a horde of uneducated superstitious slaves - just liberated from opressive rule - that were to serve as their new "constitution". Nothing new there.

Lastly - respect life. Everybody "loves" his/her own life and by extension would respect that of another person. Really, no god need to tell that to any reasonably intelligent woman or man!

No religion does not mean; no ethics or rules!

Thanks riaan and Paul for your contribution. Your views are respected, but as unchanging as the Ten Commandments (casted in stone) are, your views and those of millions of other theist will not easy change. That is why it is imperative that the state gives each an equal opportunity let their children get an education free in public schools that is from free from any religious taint.
#97

Hettie
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 30 2009 14:43:39
Zhi, great answer! Couldn't have done it better.
#99

Hettie
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 30 2009 15:02:09
Paul, I studied the bible through thoroughly as I grew up in a Christian home and once even was a missionary. I would take a long time and it would also be a waste of time for me to try and convince you of everything in the bible that doesn't make sense and the cruelties not only directed towards humankind's sinfulness but the spiteful actions of a jealous god who kills off nations for his own pleasure.

Needless to say that I am a reasonable and intelligent person, living a moral life, trying to make the right choices in every aspect of my life, respecting everything that lives (humans, animals and plants) without guilt or fear. I shed a load off my shoulders the day I started this journey of reason and finding myself.

Fairness, the rights of individuals, freedom and safety are my priorities and what makes life worth it for me. As a family we moved in search of at least some of these for our kids sake.

I don't judge, I want freedom of choice.
#100

D3m0nsp4wn
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 30 2009 15:07:45
Regarding your bickering about religion in schools, I wish to say 3 things:

1. It's illegal according to State Law to indoctrinate children with religious instruction, and that's really all that counts;

2. If you promise not to pray in my school I will promise not to think in your church;

3. http://my.opera.com/b_laudanum/blog/?startidx=32

Wishes to all,
Chris Martin
#101

Hettie
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 30 2009 15:23:44
Hi Chris, we all know that but the law isn't upheld in the public schools. Last year when we still lived in South Africa, my daughter and I had to fight for our rights. The fight is ongoing which is, if you think about it real stupid. I like the second point you made!
#102

Paul Bethke
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 30 2009 16:41:38
Zhi wrote:
QUOTE:
To Paul Bethke: I still have to encounter any black person (and I am daily in contact with a lot of them) who wants me or my child to speak to dead people. What I do find is people who have missionary zeal to convert people to theism (be it Islam or Christianity...Jewish people I encountered fortunately does not have that approach).


Lastly - respect life. Everybody "loves" his/her own life and by extension would respect that of another person. Really, no god need to tell that to any reasonably intelligent woman or man!

No religion does not mean; no ethics or rules!

Thanks riaan and Paul for your contribution. Your views are respected, but as unchanging as the Ten Commandments (casted in stone) are, your views and those of millions of other theist will not easy change. That is why it is imperative that the state gives each an equal opportunity let their children get an education free in public schools that is from free from any religious taint.




You are correct and I would gladly live by your rules if everyone else will comply.
BUT what IF people do not agree with your principal?


I have posted this article by George Claassen because of the way he has spoken out against people who try to communicate with the dead.
It is not so much as if people can communicate with the dead or not…… it is the rituals and practice which they employ to try and communicate with the dead ancestors.
Even to sacrificing people….. as recorded here on this Forum.


George Claassen as the head of Sceptics for South Africa must have out of necessity wrote this article to warn people against those who claim to be mediums.
He made it public by writing this article in a public news paper…not as an exclusive article for Sceptics.

To say you do not know of any one then contradicts what George Claassen has written and I think he is well informed

It still remains what children must be informed of!
Can the dead be contacted?
Regards
Paul Bethke





George Claassen The dead can't talk
2005-09-16 09:08
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Psychic fever, superstition and unreason are again rife in South Africa with the return of fraudster Marietta Theunissen to South African shores.

Theunissen, well-known for purporting to talk to the dead on KykNet's programme Die Ander Kant, has arrived from New Zealand to present sessions to locals who want her to speak to their beloved deceased.
She doesn't come cheap (R650 per session, 15 persons per session, two sessions a day) and stands to make nearly R20 000 per day for her "work" between 11-27 October in Cape Town and Durbanville alone.
And until then she is presenting the same crossing the Styx-sessions in Johannesburg. In Cape Town alone she stands to make more than R270 000 if her sessions are fully booked, and even larger amounts could flow into her pocket in Johannesburg.

That she will have a full house I do not doubt for one moment, judging by the stream of uncritical people who phoned in to the radio stations 702 and Cape Talk last Sunday evening during Kate Turkington's outrageously uncritical interview with Theunissen on her programme, Believe It or Not.
And this is only because there are enough gullible people who don't know the basics of scientific reason. And don't use their baloney detectors, if they possess one.

Theunissen is cashing in on people's vulnerability. It is as simple as that. Harry Houdini, who was regarded as one of the greatest con-artists ever, spoke to the dead for years.

In his later years, he exposed psychics who said they could talk to the dead and called their fraud bordering on murder.
Science 'must bring proof'


Theunissen and other so-called psychics such as John Edward and James van Praagh in the US argue that science must bring proof that they do not indeed speak to the dead.
Houdini emphasised a very valid scientific argument that it "is not the duty of us as sceptics to prove that mediums are dishonest. They must bring proof that they are honest."

James Randi, an ex-master magician himself, has challenged Edward, Van Praagh and all other people making paranormal claims to allow their so-called powers to be tested and scrutinised under scientific conditions by independent scientific observers.
He put up $1m if their claims are found to be true. Other sceptic organisations in India and Australia added more than $250 000 to Randi's amount.

Not one psychic has taken up the challenge. I have put a challenge to Theo Erasmus, producer of Die Ander Kant, for Theunissen to accept Randi's offer and that it should be televised live. The offer was not accepted.
Why?

The astrophysicist Carl Sagan, one of the best debunkers of pseudoscientific nonsense, emphasised that science is a relentless taskmaster through its scientific method. Science is also the best knowledge filter, as Michael Shermer, director of the American Skeptics, wrote in his book, Why People Believe Weird Things.
How does Theunissen fool so many people, even the media?

The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (SCICOP) studied mediums and identified the following techniques:

A flood of words: These psychics all talk very fast, with the ultimate aim to confuse the listener. Van Praagh is as fast as a Ferrari, Edward drives an Indy-500 car, a scientist who analysed his show, Crossing Over With John Edward, for ABC-television emphasised. Theunissen also uses the fast rambling technique very effectively while her guests are crying their eyes out on the show.

Cold readings: Psychics look for clues in the actions, body language, clothes, colours, jewellery, and facial expressions of their victims.
They are excellent observers. But their guess-work is still not very good. SCICOP found Edward was only 10% to 20% successful in the questions he puts to bereaved studio guests. In my own analysis of Theunissen on Die Ander Kant, she fares even worse, getting it right only 8% of the time.

Shermer exposed Edward also on the programme Unsolved Mysteries and said anyone could learn cold reading techniques within half an hour. It works because the subjects want it to work.
Warm readings: Teams behind the scenes gather information about the victims beforehand and uses it in their shows. Interviewees have to fill in biographical details before the show that are analysed by the psychic's teams before taping of the show.

Manipulations and fraud: Edward was caught out by SCICOP that he used information thus gathered to make his readings. I don't have any doubt that Theunissen follows the same techniques.
The over-emphasis of successful readings: Failures by the mediums are often edited out of television programmes.
It is time that reasonable people make their voices heard loudly and clearly about this unrelenting grip superstition has on the gullible minds of vulnerable people.

"The message the public should take away is that it is not the psychics and fortune-tellers who can see into the future" (or speak to the dead), "it is the scientists," as Robert Park puts it so aptly in his wonderful book, Voodoo Science - The Road From Foolishness to Fraud (Oxford University Press).


• George Claassen is science editor of Die Burger, South Africa's largest Afrikaans daily paper and teaches science journalism at Stellenbosch University.
#103

Paul Bethke
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 30 2009 17:03:55
D3m0nsp4wn wrote:
QUOTE:
Regarding your bickering about religion in schools, I wish to say 3 things:

1. It's illegal according to State Law to indoctrinate children with religious instruction, and that's really all that counts;

2. If you promise not to pray in my school I will promise not to think in your church;

3. http://my.opera.com/b_laudanum/blog/?startidx=32

Wishes to all,
Chris Martin



So you agree with all the laws the state makes?....these are also laws made by men to keep themselves in power.

The states controlled by the ANC as government have made laws that paralyze resistance.

It is the very people who consult the Sangomas who in turn claim to be in contact with their dead ancestors.


Keep well

Paul Bethke
#104

Paul Bethke
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 30 2009 17:12:27
Hettie wrote:
QUOTE:
Paul, I studied the bible through thoroughly as I grew up in a Christian home and once even was a missionary. I would take a long time and it would also be a waste of time for me to try and convince you of everything in the bible that doesn't make sense and the cruelties not only directed towards humankind's sinfulness but the spiteful actions of a jealous god who kills off nations for his own pleasure.

Needless to say that I am a reasonable and intelligent person, living a moral life, trying to make the right choices in every aspect of my life, respecting everything that lives (humans, animals and plants) without guilt or fear. I shed a load off my shoulders the day I started this journey of reason and finding myself.

Fairness, the rights of individuals, freedom and safety are my priorities and what makes life worth it for me. As a family we moved in search of at least some of these for our kids sake.

I don't judge, I want freedom of choice.





I hope you find the peace you are looking for....
You now have joined the hordes of people that are ashamed of the God they once proclaimed.

Regards

Paul Bethke
#105

D3m0nsp4wn
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Sep 30 2009 17:12:55
Paul: "So you agree with all the laws the state makes?"

And this the best response you could come up with after boring me for pages (quite honestly I only skimmed it) with your essay on your subscription to Xian dogma?

This is why I don't argue online. I am not retarded.

I appreciate Hettie's response to my post, as it puts the topic back into perspective for me, but please, Paul and the rest of the fanatical Xians, please rather just don't respond to me. Ever.

I will respect your views as long as you don't bother me with them.

Wishes,
Chris
#106
Reborn Skeptic
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Oct 14 2009 06:17:19
Chris, yeah - I read your earlier post and cannot agree more.

May I add that - to me, the WORST is the Xtian dishonesty when it comes to their TRUE agenda in (public) schools. Public schools have for years, and still are, in most cases bending over backwards to accomodate especially Xtians, them being the majority. If voices goes up against praying or evangelical type of preaching in class; during assembly, in staff member groups, in sport groups to a captive audience, then they shout: "persecution! THEY want to take god out of our schools; THEY don't want us to practice our religion in schools etc etc etc. Whereas this is a big, fat lie:- There is enough time in the school day or extramurally to allow for freedom-of-choice gatherings. So: It has NEVER been about this; it has been about Xtians wanting the right to use a public platform as a soapbox to spread their own agenda in our Maths, Science, History etc classes. I call this dishonest.

Some Xtians I call INTELLECTUALLY dishonest. These are (mostly) well-meaning souls who have shut off their minds to all arguments that seems to go against their religion. In type of dishonesty Xtians refuse to look at all the arguments on the table.

IN recent debates with Xians, I was told by one that "they want to take god out of our schools". I replied: How is this possible? The bible - which you say you beieve in, clearly states that "where two or three gather in my name, I'll be in your midst (paraphrased - I'm not about to dig up my old bible from the attic now). So, I challenged - don't you think that one's faith must be very small indeed if you think a few secularly inclined people in a school can keep god OUT of the school??? His reply? "No", he said, "you don't understand! God is a GENTLEMAN" (and went on to explain that so naturally god would "retreat" unless he is welcomed by all with open arms). I call this dishonest.

Sorry - reading my post again I might have rambled a bit, don't have that much time:- School is about to start
#125

Paul Bethke
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Oct 14 2009 08:54:43
D3m0nsp4wn wrote:
QUOTE:
Paul: "So you agree with all the laws the state makes?"

And this the best response you could come up with after boring me for pages (quite honestly I only skimmed it) with your essay on your subscription to Xian dogma?

This is why I don't argue online. I am not retarded.

I appreciate Hettie's response to my post, as it puts the topic back into perspective for me, but please, Paul and the rest of the fanatical Xians, please rather just don't respond to me. Ever.

I will respect your views as long as you don't bother me with them.

Wishes,
Chris





Well Chris I was going to comply with your order not to address you but I find your response to what I posted concerning what George Claassen published a little immature.

The purpose of a Forum is to discuss not to insult.

What I posted in no way can be boring as you say; it is a comment on what George Claassen published.

Why do you come on line if you are not prepared to argue your point of view?

QUOTE:
This is why I don't argue online.I am not retarded

You said it not me

Regards
Paul Bethke
#126

Paul Bethke
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Oct 14 2009 12:13:09
Reborn Skeptic wrote:
QUOTE:
Chris, yeah - I read your earlier post and cannot agree more.

May I add that - to me, the WORST is the Xtian dishonesty when it comes to their TRUE agenda in (public) schools. Public schools have for years, and still are, in most cases bending over backwards to accomodate especially Xtians, them being the majority. If voices goes up against praying or evangelical type of preaching in class; during assembly, in staff member groups, in sport groups to a captive audience, then they shout: "persecution! THEY want to take god out of our schools; THEY don't want us to practice our religion in schools etc etc etc. Whereas this is a big, fat lie:- There is enough time in the school day or extramurally to allow for freedom-of-choice gatherings. So: It has NEVER been about this; it has been about Xtians wanting the right to use a public platform as a soapbox to spread their own agenda in our Maths, Science, History etc classes. I call this dishonest.
Some Xtians I call INTELLECTUALLY dishonest. These are (mostly) well-meaning souls who have shut off their minds to all arguments that seems to go against their religion. In type of dishonesty Xtians refuse to look at all the arguments on the table.

IN recent debates with Xians, I was told by one that "they want to take god out of our schools". I replied: How is this possible? The bible - which you say you beieve in, clearly states that "where two or three gather in my name, I'll be in your midst (paraphrased - I'm not about to dig up my old bible from the attic now). So, I challenged - don't you think that one's faith must be very small indeed if you think a few secularly inclined people in a school can keep god OUT of the school??? His reply? "No", he said, "you don't understand! God is a GENTLEMAN" (and went on to explain that so naturally god would "retreat" unless he is welcomed by all with open arms). I call this dishonest.

Sorry - reading my post again I might have rambled a bit, don't have that much time:- School is about to start :)





The term Christian is used three times in the Scriptures and means adherents of Christ.

This means that when a person calls themselves a Christian they adhere to the teachings of Christ.

Most who call themselves Christians do not adhere to the teachings of Jesus.

You are judging people who call themselves Christians but are not.

In short any person who eats pig cannot be a Christian.

Regards
Paul Bethke
#127
bokbefok
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Oct 15 2009 22:37:12
QUOTE:
In short any person who eats pig cannot be a Christian.


Hierdie Paul ou wat so baie k*k praat is waarskynlik van die Israeliete kerk en probeer hom nou skaar by ons heidene. Djeesus.

Tot later mater
Bokbefok

NS: Dis sleg om op 'n forum met soveel meriete te kom en dan 'n klomp k*k van inter-krisjun squabbles oor kos, klere en haarstyle te moet verduur.

NS2: Kaptein, jy moet hierdie dwaalleringe vasvat, netnou-netnou is daar 6,000 ateis kerke ook

Laat ek eerder wegkom hier.
#129
fredre
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Nov 16 2009 13:30:29
HI All

Personally I don't think this topic is even appropriate to me as a sceptic.

QUOTE:
Sceptic South Africa is considering laying criminal charges against these schools unless these policies are immediately halted and the schools adhere to the National Policy on Religion in Education. We are not living in Nazi Germany or the apartheid state anymore.


Why is it the job of the sceptic community to try and force the implementation and compliance to regulations ?

QUOTE:
Sceptics South Africa (SSA) (in Afrikaans, Skepties Suid-Afrika) is an organisation open to anyone who has a sceptical disposition to life, questioning the validity of claims by following the basic scientific methods of observation, independent testing, rational deduction, and verification by means of copious evidence


Reading the article by mr. George Claassen I got the feeling that this was just an attack on someones religious views with various sensational quotes being thrown around.

If this is the way this community conducts itself please change the about page because I did not see any "basic scientific methods of observation, independent testing, rational deduction, and verification" in the article.
#153
subzero
Re:Public schools flout national laws on religious instruction
Dec 05 2009 19:24:44
Hettie, have you honestly read through the whole Bible? I ask this question because your description of the Bible bares no resemblence to its message. Its like me claiming to have read The God Delusion a number of times and go on to declair that Richard Dawkins is a priest (I'm sure you would point out that I have lost the plot).
#200
There are too many comments to list them all here. See the forum for the full discussion.

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