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Belief, God Genes, and the Findings of Science Print E-mail
Posted by George Claassen   
Wednesday, 11 November 2009


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Imageby George Claassen

Is there any reason to still believe in God? Or are religious faith and reason incompatible? 

 

I ask this because the pressure on scientists to become believers in God seems to get stronger by the day. Atheism is more and more used as an excuse to get rid of competent people. We all know that in the American election the chances of a candidate who openly states he or she is an atheist is absolutely none to be elected as president.

The vast majority of scientists say these questions can immediately be answered with a direct no and yes respectively.  

No, there is no single reason today to continue believing or to have to believe in God. For that, science has since Copernicus and Galileo in the 15th and 16th century, Darwin in the 19th and modern discoveries today been too emphatic in discrediting and in fact killing the fairy tales of the Bible, the Koran en other holy books.  

And yes, reason and religious faith are indeed incompatible in an age where scientific findings and reason have probably become the only mechanisms to survive in a universe and solar system in which the God in whom so many believe, clearly has never made his appearance, or is rather too quiet when humankind has needed him most.  

Sometimes science needs to turn to literature to get this message across, as the British scientist Lewis Wolpert does by looking at Lewis Carroll’s Alice in Wonderland. In Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast – The Evolutionary Origins of Belief Wolpert examines the exposure Alice experiences to the irrational thinking of the White Queen.

Alice finds it difficult to believe in impossible things and tells this to the White Queen when they discuss faith.  

Yet the White Queen is not put off track. “I dare say, you haven’t had much practice. When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast,” she tells Alice.  

In the last decade of the 20th century some scientists tried to link religion to a possible genetic trait. Yet, today there is still no scientific evidence for the existence of a God gene. The researcher who has first formulated the theory trying to explain the presence of religious faith in some people or the absence of it in others, Marc Hamer, has long been discredited and proven wrong. Rather then use the term God meme or religious meme, as Richard Dawkins, evolutionary zoologist of Oxford University, proposes.   

Dawkins takes the evolutionary process of variation, natural selection, and heredity a step further and in The Selfish Gene he applies it to a process of human simulation and cultural transfer: biological genes are extended to what he calls memes. A meme is a unit of cultural transfer, or unit of simulation. Genes are replicated, copied from parents to descendents from one generation to the next.  Comparatively a meme is anything that can be replicated from mind to mind, via any form of copying, Dawkins explains.

“Examples of memes are tunes, ideas, catch-phrases, clothes fashions, ways of making pots or of building arches. Just as genes propagate themselves in the gene pool by leaping from body to body via sperms or eggs, so memes propagate themselves in the meme pool by leaping from brain to brain via a process which, in the broad sense, can be called imitation,” he writes in The Selfish Gene.

Dawkins quotes his colleague N.K. Humphrey who believes “memes should be regarded as living structures, not just metaphorically but technically. When you plant a fertile meme in my mind you literally parasitize my brain, turning it into a vehicle for the meme’s propagation in just the way that a virus may parasitize the genetic mechanism of a host cell. And this isn’t just a way of talking – the meme for, say, ‘belief in life after death’ is actually realized physically, millions of times over, as a structure in the nervous systems of individual men the world over.”

Today religion is one of the strongest memes noticeable in the social conduct and fabric of people. Dawkins writes the “survival value of the god meme in the meme pool results from its great psychological appeal. It provides a superficially plausible answer to deep and troubling questions about existence. It suggests that injustices in this world may be rectified in the next. The ‘everlasting arms’ hold out a cushion against our own inadequacies which, like a doctor’s placebo, is none the less effective for being imaginary. These are some of the reasons why the idea of God is copied so readily by successive generations of individual brains. God exists, if only in the form of a meme with high survival value, or infective power, in the environment provided by human culture.”   

The British scientist on the psychology of consciousness Susan Blackmore explains the difference between science and religion. The core of science is the scientific method, based on the testing of any idea. Religion does not work that way. “Religions build theories about the world and then prevent them from being tested. Religions provide nice, appealing and comforting ideas, and cloak them in a mask of ‘truth, beauty, and goodness’. The theories can then thrive in spite of being untrue, ugly, or cruel,” she writes in The Meme Machine.  

Some people, especially the religious, but also some leading religious scientists such as Francis Collins and John Polkinghome, propagate the NOMA-principle as formulated by the late Harvard palaeontologist Stephen Jay Gould. According to Gould religion and science are two separate fields; he defines the relationship between the two as Non Overlapping Magisteria. According to this science should refrain from meddling in religious matters and vice versa.  

In contrast to this, is the view propagated by Dawkins, Wolpert, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Steve Jones, Jared Diamond, Ernst Mayr and numerous other scientists and philosophers of science, who believe Gould’s NOMA-principle is far too accommodating to religion – especially because of religious propagation of miracles in direct conflict to natural laws. Dawkins writes in The Devil’s Chaplain that everyone who believes in the miracles of religions is indeed making claims belonging to the field of science, “a violation of the normal running of the natural world”. To believe in miracles, is to overthrow the natural laws and immediately places the believer in the field of science. If theologians want to be honest, they must make a choice, Dawkins writes: “You can claim your own magisterium, separate from science's, but still deserving of respect. But in that case you have to renounce miracles.” 

A very large majority – some research suggests more than 95% - of the elite scientists in Britain and the USA agree with this view. Wolpert refers in Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast – The Evolutionary Origins of Belief to the White Queen-syndrome so characteristic in religious believers and believers of paranormal phenomena.   

According to Wolpert continued research shows that the percentage of scientists believing in a creator God has dwindled drastically since 1914. It is indicative that this declining trend started in the early part of the 20th century when modern genetics began proving and extending Darwin’s theory of evolution. And after that further strengthened by the tremendous strides of progress made in cosmological discoveries that showed the Earth and Universe is far older than the beliefs propagated by creationists and proponents of Intelligent Design.  

When Darwin in 1859 published The Origin of Species, Gregor Mendel had not yet conducted or completed his genetic experiments in the garden of a Bohemian monastery. He eventually published his research results in 1865 in an obscure German science magazine, but Darwin, who openly admitted in The Origin of Species he could not explain what the reason is for natural selection, could not read German. And until his death in 1882 he was unaware of Mendel’s important work that in essence strongly substantiated his evolutionary theory.   

Only at the beginning of the 20th century Mendel was rediscovered and this led to the development of modern genetics, culminating in the mapping of the human genome in 2001.  

Wolpert shows how scientists of note have over a century gradually become less inclined to believe in God. In two studies in 1914 and 1933 scientists were inter alia asked the following: Do you believe in a God who communicates with people and to whom you can pray and from whom you can expect an answer? Do you believe in everlasting life? Yes, No, and I don’t know were the only possible answers that could be given.  

Between 1914 and 1998 the percentage of scientists – it included human scientists – believing in God remained constant at more or less 40%. But among the natural science elite – winners of Nobel prizes, the Field medal and other prestigious natural sciences awards – only 30% percent believed  in God in 1914 and by 1933 this had declined to just 20%. In 1998 the elite scientists of the British Royal Society’s US compeer, the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), had only 10% believers in God, where biologists were the representatives in the majority, Wolpert explains. This is an important finding because biology is the basis of Darwin’s theory of evolution.  

And it was Darwin who gave the idea of a creator god its first serious, yet not the final fatal head wound, in the 19th century - a wound that gradually became septic through the revelations of modern genetics, geology, palaeontology, palaeoanthropology, physics, chemistry, and other scientific fields and which should eventually lead to the death of the everlasting life idea in the distant, maybe far distant, future.   

According to the Larson en Witham study of 1998, Dawkins shows in The God Delusion, similar figures and statistics are applicable to the Royal Society in Britain. Here top scientists believing in God and an everlasting life, have become a very small figure. Only 3,3% of Britain’s top scientists agree with the statement that a personal god exists.  

The question is: are these overwhelming figures among knowledgeable scientists relevant? Should these percentages carry any weight? The great majority of scientists believe they are if we adhere to the principle of peer reviewed, testable and evidence-based science, and believe in the relevance of scientific expertise.  

If rational thinking based on evidence is accepted in the scientific community, these findings are very relevant. And if the public only accept the view of scientists when it does not clash with their own beliefs where does that leave science?  

One example: when scientists are called to testify about their findings as experts in their field in court cases, their expertise and the probability factor in their scientific field can carry a lot of weight in the court’s judgment. If this kind of statistics is presented by top scientists like these from the NAS and the FRS in a court case, the chances are excellent that the overwhelming probability (without reasonable doubt) would be against an Intelligent Designer and a created universe, based on the available evidence. It would confirm the triumph of science over superstition and belief in the supernatural.

Dawkins explains this lucidly in The Selfish Gene, that the Universe we observe has precisely the characteristics that we would expect if there was no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing else than meaningless indifference. He argues we are machines reproducing DNA and that this is our only reason for living.

Wolpert also believes scientific thinking is the most important purpose in life. In Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast he writes: “My thinking is based on a belief in the scientific process, and the necessity for evidence. I am committed to science and believe it to be the best way to understand the world. ... I know of no good evidence for the existence of God. ... Science provides by far the most reliable method for determining whether one’s beliefs are valid. It may be difficult, as it will go often against common sense, but its value is inestimable.” 

The trait so common among people to attribute anything we cannot understand and explain to God is the easy, uncritical and non-investigative route, Wolpert, Dawkins and other non-believing scientists argue. It is also a very common phenomenon among Afrikaners, most of them very religious. Gideon Joubert did this in his bestseller, Die Groot Gedagte. And also unfortunately Leon Rousseau in his long expected book, Die Groot Avontuur. We see this attitude towards the inexplicable also in the Afrikaans media in the words and views of leading Afrikaans thinkers such as Wilhelm Jordaan, Okkie Geyser, Anton van Niekerk, Louw Alberts, Eugène Cloete and others.  

The evidence for evolution has become so overwhelming that many religious believers have accepted it. But the new method to avoid the terrible reality of evolution (terrible from the viewpoint of the creation story of the Bible) is to propose the vague idea of Intelligent Design. They believe this Intelligent Designer has used evolution to develop life on Earth. Who or what he is, is usually not openly defined, although members of the Discovery Institute in Seattle, the most important propagators of Intelligent Design, have admitted that it can only be the God of Christianity.  

The American geneticist Jerry Coyne believes “… the real war is between rationality and superstition. Science is but one form of rationality, while religion is the most common form of superstition… If the history of science shows us anything, it is that we get nowhere by calling our ignorance ‘God’.”

This is further expanded by the British physicist William Bowen Bonner’s explanation of the scientific method in The Mystery of the Expanding Universe:  

“It is the business of science to offer rational explanations for all the events in the real world, and any scientist who calls on God to explain something is falling down on his job. This applies as much to the start of the expansion as to any other event. If the explanation is not forthcoming at once, the scientist must suspend judgment: but if he is worth his salt he will always maintain that a rational explanation will eventually be found. This is the one piece of dogmatism that a scientist can allow himself – and without it science would be in danger of giving way to superstition every time that a problem defied solution for a few years.” 

Believers in a creator God persistently use the argument that science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. But that is a safe wall behind which no rational and intelligent person should hide, argue non-believing scientists. It is not the duty and aim of science to get evidence for God’s existence. As the scientist from Yale University Robert Dorit wrote in Scientific American, “science does not look for the fingerprints of God”. Scientists like Dorit argue in a rational and evidence-based world it is the duty of religious believers to bring their evidence for the existence of the gods they pray to and from whom they continue to ask protection against critical questions about their faith.  

Robert Todd Carroll, American sceptic and publisher of The Skeptic’s Dictionary, writes about the absence of God when you look at nature around you (www.skepdic.com):  

The argument from design is one of the ‘proofs’ for the existence of God. In its basic form, this argument infers from the intelligent order and created beauty of the universe that there is an intelligent Designer and Creator of the universe. The argument has been criticized for begging the question: it assumes the universe is designed in order to prove that it is the work of a designer. The argument also suppresses evidence: for all its beauty and grandeur, the universe is also full of, well, to be delicate, let us say that the universe is also full of nasties. I suppose I should be more specific, but I think the reader knows the kind of thing I mean: babies born without brains, good people suffering monstrous tortures such as neurofibromatosis, evil people basking in the sun and enjoying power, reputation, etc. Volcanoes erupting, earthquakes rattling the planet, hurricanes and tornadoes blindly wiping out thousands of lives a day. Is it unfair to call these things the nasties, what is blithely referred to by theists as non-moral evil or physical evil? To say, as many defenders of Design do, that these nasties only seem nasty to us but we are ignorant of God's plan and vision and cannot know how good these nasties really are, is self-refuting. If we can't know what's good and what's not, we can't know whether the design, if any, is good or bad.”

A theologian and religious reformer of the University of South Africa, Sakkie Spangenberg, a scientist of ancient religions who left his church because of its “dogmatic belief in the literal truth of every word in the Bible”, also refers to the phenomenon of natural disasters or the suffering of people.  

Homo sapiens is not the centre around which everything on Earth turns – even though Christian dogmas want us to believe this. This species can also disappear as the dinosaurs did – and maybe the tsunami disaster of 2004 was a timely reminder of that possibility. 

Another reason why belief in a creator God is not necessary anymore, argue many scientists, is the evidence in nature that religion does not provide the sole and only moral compass. Religious scientists and non-scientists  – Francis Collins of the Human Genome Project and a Christian, comes to mind as a strong propagator of this view – allege we need the moral compass of religion to withstand Satan’s evil in society. Research today shows that religion is not the only moral compass in life. Marc Hauser, professor in psychology and biological anthropology and director of the Cognitive Evolution Laboratory at Harvard, said in an interview in New Scientist of 3 March 2007: 

“What interests me is the assumption that morality and religion are synonymous. The evidence we have suggests that having a religious background makes no difference to your moral judgment.” 
 

In an article on 20 March 2007 in the science section of The New York Times the science writer Nicholas Wade wrote about recent research with chimpanzees and other primates. Wade emphasised how wrong most religions are in claiming morality is a unique human quality:  

“Some animals are surprisingly sensitive to the plight of others. Chimpanzees, which cannot swim, have drowned in zoo moats trying to save others. Given the chance to get food by pulling a chain that would also deliver an electric shock to a companion, rhesus monkeys will starve themselves for several days. Biologists argue that these and other social behaviors are the precursors of human morality. They further believe that if morality grew out of behavioural rules shaped by evolution, it is for biologists, not philosophers or theologians, to say what these rules are.” 

Non-believing scientists sometimes refer to the injustice religions perpetrate by following the instructions and prescriptions of their holy books – this despite the findings of modern science. The Christian and Muslim religion’s view of gays is a typical example where these holy instructions are kept in place in contradiction with modern research.  

Research since the 1980s has determined a genetic explanation for being gay, although the final word about the nature/nurture factor has still to be determined. Arguments by some religions that homosexuality is only a human condition and that it forms no part in the sexual behaviour of other species, have also been refuted. Numerous primate scientists have found that some primates such as chimpanzees and bonobos quite often practise homosexual behaviour.

Yet science is conveniently ignored when gays in Iran and other Muslim countries are stoned to death or hanged. In South Africa a gay Dutch Reformed minister, Laurie Gaum, was stripped of the cloth and in the largest DRC congregation in Pretoria, the Moreletta DRC, and virtual warfare is preached against gays.   

The late American physicist Carl Sagan emphasised that science needs evidence to be regarded as valid. His views on the need for evidence for UFO’s to be accepted, could just as well have been applicable on religions’ claim about a creator God. In The Demon-haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark he wrote:

“…everything hinges on the matter of evidence. On so important a question, the evidence must be airtight. The more we want it to be true, the more careful we have to be. No witness’s say-so is good enough. People make mistakes. People play practical jokes. People stretch the truth for money or attention or fame. People occasionally misunderstand what they’re seeing. People sometimes even see things that aren’t there.”

Today we have the dilemma that while in 2009 it will be 150 years ago that Charles Darwin’s epoch-making The Origin of Species was first published, an event that turned humankind’s thinking about its origins on its head, there are still millions – probably more than a billion – believing steadfastly that evolution is just a theory and not valid science. Even ignoring what scientists and science have to say about its validity. Also that governments and the common citizen make important decisions based on this fallacious viewpoint.

What do scientists say about evolution as a theory? the protesting parents should first have asked.  

Jared Diamond, the American evolutionary biologist and physiologist and winner of the Pulitzer Prize, writes that evolution is the most profound and powerful idea thought out over the past two centuries.  

Ernst Mayr, die German-born American evolutionary biologist, probably one of the most important since Darwin, states it even more strongly in his book What Evolution Is:  

“Evolution is the most important concept in biology. There is not a single Why? question in biology that can be answered adequately without a consideration of evolution. But the importance of this concept goes far beyond biology. The thinking of modern humans, whether we realize it or not, is profoundly affected – one is almost tempted to say determined – by evolutionary thinking.”  

The British biologist Julian Huxley wrote in Religion Without Revelation “Evolution is the most powerful and most comprehensive idea that has ever arisen on Earth.” With regard to religion’s diminishing influence in the light of scientific discoveries, he also remarked in Religion Without Revelation,  “Operationally, God is beginning to resemble not a ruler, but the last fading smile of a cosmic Cheshire cat.” 

In contrast to this, the views of two influential thinkers of the church showed how seriously reason was endangering the institutions of religions.  

First there was the German religious reformer Philipp Melanchthon (1497-1560) who reacted to the formulation of the theory of heliocentrism: “This mad man Copernicus should be repressed by some Christian prince.” 

John Calvin was also aggravated by Copernicus and his findings: “Who will dare to put the authority of Copernicus above that of the Holy Spirit?” he asked. 

One could easily ask, reformulated in a modern idiom of the church, mosque and synagogue: “Who will dare to put the authority of Darwin, Penzias and Wilson, Mayr and science above that of the Holy Spirit?”  

Many scientists and philosophers point out that reason is endangered by religious thinking. Dick Taverne, the British sceptic, writes in The March of Unreason – Science, Democracy, and the New Fundamentalism: “The new Rome that science built is under siege by the barbarians.”

Richard Dawkins explains this affinity to superstition in The Devil’s Chaplain, as a comment on Bertrand Russell’s hypothetical china teapot orbiting the Sun. He writes as “a lover of truth, I am suspicious of strongly held beliefs that are unsupported by evidence: fairies, unicorns, werewolves, any of the infinite set of conceivable and unfalsifiable beliefs…”

Dawkins elaborates on this in The God Delusion by pointing out Russell’s argument that it is not the scientists who have to prove God exists, but rather the believers; “the burden of proof rests with the believers, not the non-believers… The fact that orbiting teapots and tooth fairies are undisprovable is not felt, by any reasonable person, to be the kind of fact that settles any interesting argument. None of us feels an obligation to disprove any of the millions of far-fetched things that a fertile or facetious imagination might dream up. I have found it an amusing strategy, when asked whether I am an atheist, to point out that the questioner is also an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I just go one god further.”

The author Douglas Adams reacted to the claim by religious people that the beauty of nature is evidence of God’s existence:  

“Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”

One of the questions asked by scientists is why in our country where freedom of speech is protected by the constitution, religions always claim protection against criticism of their beliefs, despite the overwhelming scientific evidence that cast serious doubt on those claims. Religion is nothing else than a form of superstition, the American geneticist Jerry Coyne remarked: why should religions have more authority and protection than other superstitions and pseudosciences? Sceptics point out that we do not give special protection to people believing in astrology or the Jeti, or to people believing that you can talk to the dead. Why then this special protection allocated to religions?  

Let anyone practise whatever superstition they like or prefer, but do not expect scientists and other rational thinking people to accept these claims without any criticism, sceptics argue. 

They refer to Carl Sagan’s baloney detection kit to help one to distinguish between valid and invalid claims. “Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.” Without a baloney detector, this distinction cannot be made.

Will science one day through its findings hit the final nail in the coffin of religion? Probably not soon and most possibly never. Although Max Planck believed that a “new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it”, the religious meme may be so strong that new scientific truths will never change the minds of those finding the probability of ultimate death too ghastly to contemplate.


Related Items:

 
Discuss (7 posts)
dannykopping
Belief, God Genes, and the Findings of Science
Nov 21 2009 23:15:02
This thread discusses the Content article: Belief, God Genes, and the Findings of Science

Hi George

Fascinating article! I agree that religion and science are mutually incompatible because they rely on two completely and diammetrically opposed means of ratiocination. Science adjusts its views based on observation and evidence, constantly trying to disprove assertions and remove all reasonable doubt; religion encourages non-thought and non-observation backed by an irrational and incoherent allegiance to a holy text.

Science relies on theories and data; theory is just mere word-play with data, and data is useless without theory. I'm quite fond of a definition that someone once gave me of the word "information" - "information is the end-product of the combination between data and theory". If i had only one wish, it wouldn't be to banish religion from the minds of our country (and the world) but to encourage critical thinking and intellectual investigation. I believe that instead of populating our childrens' minds with religious dogma and superstition, we should fill their heads with the ability to think for themselves.

Ariene Sherine and Richard Dawkins recently launched a second phase of their famed "Atheist Bus Campaign" - have you been following this? This new campaign encourages people to let their children decide their religion for themselves, and i appluad them for this.

On a different note, i was intrigued by your capitalization of the word "god"... Could you explain why you do this?
#156
georgeclaassen
Re:Belief, God Genes, and the Findings of Science
Nov 23 2009 14:58:14
Hi Danny

The use of God instead of god: usually we do that to indicate the monotheistic God so many people believe in. But in general I speak of gods when I refer to the deity people want to pr ay to.
#159
dannykopping
Re:Belief, God Genes, and the Findings of Science
Nov 23 2009 15:07:10
I see... Thanks for clarifying that!

On a different note, are you guys planning to start a Johannesburg leg of Sceptics South Africa? As far as i know, you and Wayne are based in Cape Town, and i think that Jhb has hundreds of sceptics that would love to join this sort of effort. Could i contact you directly?

Thanks
#160
georgeclaassen
Re:Belief, God Genes, and the Findings of Science
Nov 23 2009 15:12:11
Danny, yes, we have quite a number of people up north. I can send you such a list. You can contact me directly at scepticsa@gmail.com.
#161

Paul Bethke
Re:Belief, God Genes, and the Findings of Science
Nov 23 2009 23:57:50
Believers in a creator God

QUOTE:
And yes, reason and religious faith are indeed incompatible in an age where scientific findings and reason have probably become the only mechanisms to survive in a universe and solar system in which the God in whom so many believe, clearly has never made his appearance, or is rather too quiet when humankind has needed him most.



Hello George


I am a believer in science and I am a believer in God BUT which god?
The God of Israel that vindictive vengeful God who destroys every thing that does not agree with him.

I am an engineering technician mechanical and electrical.
With out the scientific knowledge I could not maintain the generation of electricity.

I also have faith in Christ by this I mean I live by the principal of what he taught.
My faith in Christ by no means contradicts the principal of electrical generation.

Faith in Christ is practical and the principal of generation is also practical.

Five hundred years ago there was no electricity, does that mean that the components used in the construction and development of the generation of electricity did not exist?
They did exist but they had not yet been discovered.

So there was a process of evolution that took place until we have what we have today.

Knowledge of God has also been a process over time during which time men have made considerable errors in their interpretations of the Scriptures.

The intensions of God are plain to see if the motive of the one seeking understanding applies the simple principal of what Jesus taught.

Now that I understand the simple intensions of God as Jesus taught can furnish you with the evidence of the existence of God that is the God of Israel.

What I understand is that God the God of Israel does nothing without man.

The need to have a man of faith is paramount in God intervening in the affairs of this world.
Like Moses the intensions of God must be made plain.

That evidence would then mean the repeating of what is recorded in the Scriptures.



Regards

Paul Bethke
#165
dannykopping
Re:Belief, God Genes, and the Findings of Science
Nov 24 2009 00:47:41
Hi Paul

You claim that God cannot intervene in the world without man... Now, would you at least accept that there are people with ulterior motives that could feign or otherwise lie about an intervention by God purely to advance a personal motive of theirs?

I'm not in the business of converting people away from religion, but i do believe that we should look critically at empirical evidence - and for the case of God, there is no empirical evidence. Now, i do commend you for being a believer in science and enginering is indeed a noble and respectable profession; however, I do feel that your arguments for your belief in God are very logically incoherent. If i were to propose a problem where i asked you to define electricity, you wouldn't invoke electricity in your explanation - this is called "circular" reasoning. Based on this, i ask you - can you explain God without invoking God? Can you give me any philosophical reasons why people should still believe in God? I find it very hard to believe in the Abrahamic, less hard to believe in the God of Spinoza (the theory of "deism" but the fact of the matter is that we have no need for God if we have Science. I'm not proposing that you lose your spirituality, but all that awe and reverence you have for the your God could just as easily be aimed at the sheer stunning existence of our improbable universe.

By your own admission, your faith in Christ by no means contradicts the principal of electricity, but this is like saying that your love of your wife does not contradict your affection for macaroni cheese. However, electricity is part and parcel of science which cannot (and i stress this point most emphatically) be compatible with religious belief because thay are completely non-overlapping magesteria, two halves of a false dichotomy.

I applaud you for - at the very least - being part of this great forum, but i must respectfully claim that your views are logically flawed.
Thanks
#166

Paul Bethke
Re:Belief, God Genes, and the Findings of Science
Nov 24 2009 16:07:55
Hello Danny

QUOTE:
You claim that God cannot intervene in the world without man... Now, would you at least accept that there are people with ulterior motives that could feign or otherwise lie about an intervention by God purely to advance a personal motive of
theirs?


Yes that is true
But these people can be easily detected when one uses the Scriptures in the Bible to examine their actions and their speech.
Departure from doctrinal truths are simple to diagnose.

QUOTE:
I'm not in the business of converting people away from religion, but i do believe that we should look critically at empirical evidence - and for the case of God,
there is no empirical evidence.


But what sort of evidence would you require to prove the existence of God that as I must emphasise is the God of Israel?
As I said initially that would then require repeating the events recorded in the Scriptures.
Which one of these would you choose?


QUOTE:
Now, i do commend you for being a believer in science and enginering is indeed a noble and respectable profession; however, I do feel that your arguments for your belief in God are very logically incoherent.


It is my appreciation of science that makes it easy for me to accept the existence in God.

For instance when I see a three hundred ton air craft taking off and landing I stand in awe of this achievement.

When I look at what man has accomplished using science that being the knowledge of how things work I am amazed at his abilities.

The phasing in of different generators at fifty cycles per second is astronomically achieved.
Now this science as you may know is required to synchronise different power stations to operate on the same grid.

To my mind man reflects the attributes of creation, everything is created, and it can not just appear there must be a design and a designer.


QUOTE:
If I were to propose a problem where i asked you to define electricity, you wouldn't invoke electricity in your explanation - this is called "circular" reasoning. Based on this, i ask you - can you explain God without invoking God?


As with electricity I could not carry on the science if there were no record.
Theory recorded is the practical achieved.
By this I mean the theory explains how to achieve the practical.
The practical achieved was theorised for future progress.
Departure from the theory may result in the practical not functioning.

My knowledge of God comes from the Scriptures contained in the Bible, without that record I would have no knowledge of God.
Without the Scriptures I would not know what kind of person God is.
Without the scriptures I would not know the will of this God.
Putting into practice the knowledge I have acquired from the Scriptures gives me the evidence of the existence of God.

QUOTE:
Can you give me any philosophical reasons why people should still believe in God?


The word believe from a Scriptural connotation means to put into practice.
Hence I would phrase it as obedience to the teachings handed down to mankind by man that then would be initiated with the commencement with the Ten Commands, primarily the do nots.
Do not lie.
Do not steal.
Do not commit adultery.
Do not murder.
Do not covet your neighbour’s possessions his wife.


QUOTE:
I find it very hard to believe in the Abrahamic, less hard to believe in the God of Spinoza (the theory of "deism") but the fact of the matter is that we have no need for God if we have
Science.



We may not have a need for God but we do have a need for justice.
So we are back at the beginning to make laws by which society can live in safety.
So over to you what do you propose?


QUOTE:
I'm not proposing that you lose your spirituality, but all that awe and
revere! nce you have for the your God could just as easily be aimed at the sheer stunning
existence of our improbable universe.


It is that awe that you speak of that gives me that the understanding of how great the universe is.

As man progresses the universe becomes bigger and bigger.
These new telescopes help man to see how great this creation is.
His progress into space indicates his quest for knowledge.
His inventive nature cannot be satisfied until he knows the truth.


QUOTE:
By your own admission, your faith in Christ by no means contradicts the principal of electricity, but this is like saying that your love of your wife does not contradict your affection for macaroni cheese.


Not really my faith in Christ is summed up in my behaviour I like macaroni cheese, but I love my wife.
By this I mean I will not lie to my wife.
I will not be unfaithful to her by committing adultery.
I will provide for her well being.

QUOTE:
However, electricity is part and parcel of science which cannot (and i stress this point most emphatically) be compatible with religious belief because thay are completely non-overlapping magesteria, two halves of a false dichotomy.


You are not correct in your analysis as I have pointed out faith and belief are behavioural characteristics.
Meaning you can be an honest person
Or
You can be a dishonest person.

QUOTE:
I applaud you for - at the very least - being part of this great forum, but i must
respectfully claim that your views are logically flawed.
Thanks


Well I thank you
Paul Bethke
#167


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