Yeah at Gold Reef City. We stood just in front of the Lyric Theatre. It was the first bit of skeptical activism I've been involved in. Really enjoyed it, even getting thrown out was kind of fun! There's another topic here:
http://forum.skeptic.za.org/

Interesting, Peter. Have you seen the study by Time magazine in which they exposed the fraudulent techniques of these psychics? They usually have a list of people they will target in the audience and their CVs or personal details. Or they shoot in the dark and watch closely how people react.I recently saw a show where our own fraudster, Marietta Theunissen, was so laughably wrong on kykNet with one person. You should have seen how she tried to talk it away by gibberish.

We were discussing Marietta Theunissen on Friday at Newscafe afterwards. Still have lots of cold reading pamphlets left, so maybe we'll use them on one of her events.

Hello again George

QUOTE:
Its time South Africans switch on their baloney detectors. And the media giving exposure to these fraudsters too.
we have

Fact is, no one can talk to the dead and there is no scientific evidence that Edward, Marietta Theunissen, another favourite fraudster of the media (her programme Die Ander Kant is broadcast by kykNet on DStv), or any other psychic have ever spoken to anyone on the other side of the Styx. clearly lost our baloney detectors.

As I mentioned in another post on this Forum the importance of what children are taught.
As you have stated the living cannot communicate with the dead.
Now bear with me there is Scriptural evidence that the living cannot communicate with the dead.

So the Bible can be used as a baloney detector.

But the culture and customs of many of the African tribes believe that they can communicate with their ancestors to gain insight into problems that they incur.
Their customs and practice revolve around these ceremonies.

Everywhere there is a gathering you see these Sangomas and praise singers accompanying the government leaders

You would need to condemn these practices as well!!!

My concern is that these practices and customs are interwoven in the Church.

The Church must be kept separate from these practices.

Permit me to quote from the Scripture to illustrate.
Deuteronomy 18:9-13 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there.
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire,

who practices divination or sorcery,
interprets omens,

engages in witchcraft, or

casts spells, or

who is a medium or

spiritist or who consults the dead.

Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD,
and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.
You must be blameless before the LORD your God.



Now this is not a passive injunction it is a judgment and as then so now the same injunction is valid and so it will be seen that this judgment will be carried out in this day and age.
I write this as a prophet.
A prophet being a person who speaks the very words of God that is the God of Israel.

QUOTE:
Its time South Africans switch on their baloney detectors. And the media giving exposure to these fraudsters too. we have clearly lost our baloney detectors.

So you see George we have something in common


Regards
Paul Bethke

You dare to quote Deuteronomy!?

Do you follow all of its edicts to the letter? Do you plan to stone your children to death if they don't obey you?

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

'If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not listen to the voice of his father or his mother even when they punish him his father and mother must take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard." All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.'

Hello Wayne

QUOTE:
You dare to quote Deuteronomy!?
Do you follow all of its edicts to the letter? Do you plan to stone your children to death if they don't obey you?

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

'If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not listen to the voice of his father or his mother even when they punish him his father and mother must take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard." All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.'

I dare to refer to any portion of Scripture I am not here to defend what is written but to declare.

What about this Quote Deuteronomy 22:20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girls virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her fathers house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her fathers house. You must purge the evil from among you.

AS I said God as he has revealed himself to mankind via the Scriptures is a vindictive vengeful God either you bow or you will be destroyed.
But he is also merciful if you repent he will forgive.

If mankind had followed the simple principals laid out for a hallowed life then there would be no need for such harsh measures.

In order for the world to enjoy peace the method to obtain peace in this day and age will be harsh.

Children must be obedient to their parents and parents must teach children to be responsible.
A breakdown of this nature has resulted in what we have today anarchy.

The term purge is used to remove that which will not conform to the hallowed life God the God of Israel has called us to live.

Regards
Paul Bethke

There is a big difference between cannot and may not. According to the bible it's possible to communicate with the dead, you're just not allowed to.

GoodPeter Grant wrote:

QUOTE:
There is a big difference between cannot and may not. According to the bible it's possible to communicate with the dead, you're just not allowed to.

Good day Peter

By your statement I assume that you are referring to the occasion recorded in 1 Samuel 28?
The witch of Endor. This is an unique occasion to inform Saul of his demise.

There are many other references that point to the day of judgement when the dead will be judged.
But the most authoritive statement is made by Jesus in Luke 16:19-31.

If as you say it is possible to communicate with the dead but not allowed to we find many people doing what they are not allowed to do? This then would mean that Edwards and the like are in actual fact communicating with the dead?

Remember we are using the Bible as a reference to what is stated therein not as external but internal.
Taking that into account the reference is made to demon spirits impersonating the departed.

Dt 32:17 They sacrificed to demons, which are not God
gods they had not known,
gods that recently appeared,
gods your fathers did not fear.

Ps 106:37 They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons.

Lk 11:14 Jesus was driving out a demon that was mute. When the demon left, the man who had been mute spoke, and the crowd was amazed.

Re 16:14 They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

Act 16:16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future.
She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune telling. This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, these men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved. She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her! At that moment the spirit left her.

1Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

1 Corinthians 10:17-22 Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lords table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?


I make no apology for the reference of Scripture as the evidence when used to determine doctrine.

To prove doctrine we must stay in the bounds of Scripture even if you do not believe in the validity of the Bible.
I am opposed to the so called churches that distort the doctrine that Jesus taught.

Besides logically what can the dead tell us that we do not know?
No Peter there can be no communication with the dead.

So in proving this as I started out the Bible can be used as a baloney detector to discredit these people who prey on the lives of gullible people.
Where are our baloney detectors?

Regards
Paul Bethke

I doubt that John Edward (or anyone else for that matter) can communicate with the dead or with "demons". Why are you trying to explain one type of woo with another? I would explain John Edward's alleged psychic ability in terms of cold reading and psychology. Your spiritual explanation seems even less credible than Edward's.

Peter Grant wrote:

QUOTE:
I doubt that John Edward (or anyone else for that matter) can communicate with the dead or with "demons". Why are you trying to explain one type of woo with another? I would explain John Edward's alleged psychic ability in terms of cold reading and psychology. Your spiritual explanation seems even less credible than Edward's.

Indeed! When you hear a bump in the night ... why assume that since you don't believe in vampires ... it must be a troll!?

This discussion has quickly become a "my invisible friend is better than yours" discussion.

Peter Grant wrote:

QUOTE:
I doubt that John Edward (or anyone else for that matter) can communicate with the dead or with "demons". Why are you trying to explain one type of woo with another? I would explain John Edward's alleged psychic ability in terms of cold reading and psychology.
Your spiritual explanation seems even less credible than Edward's.

QUOTE:
There is a big difference between cannot and may not. According to the bible it's possible to communicate with the dead, you're just not allowed to.

Peter you made a statement saying according to the Bible.
Well I showed you that according to the Bible the dead cannot communicate with the living.

The point that I made is that John Edward cannot communicate with the dead so what ever method that he employs is as you say

Regards
Paul Bethke

QUOTE:
Indeed! When you hear a bump in the night ... why assume that since you don't believe in vampires ... it must be a troll!?

This discussion has quickly become a "my invisible friend is better than yours" discussion.

Wayne

I expect a more intelligent response from you.
What are you talking about?
I thought you and yours are concerned about people being doped as I am.
People being led astray by charlatans.

That which I admire about James Randi is his quest to expose such people be they religious or not.

Regards
Paul Bethke

Paul Bethke wrote:

QUOTE:

Peter you made a statement saying according to the Bible.
Well I showed you that according to the Bible the dead cannot communicate with the living.

No you didn't. All you've shown is that according to the bible God disapproves of attempts to communicate with the dead and that "demons" sometimes get involved. The example you gave of Samuel's ghost indicates that according to the bible communication with the dead is at least in principal possible, even though this is considered fraught with danger and strongly discouraged.

What if John Edward claimed to be communicating with demons instead? How would you attempt to use the bible to detect that particular brand of baloney?

Wayne de Villiers wrote:

QUOTE:

Indeed! When you hear a bump in the night ... why assume that since you don't believe in vampires ... it must be a troll!?

This discussion has quickly become a "my invisible friend is better than yours" discussion.

LOL But what really interests me is what happens if you follow this line of reasoning: Who is guilty of fraud in this case? Is John Edward defrauding little old ladies or is he himself, as Paul seems to be suggesting, being defrauded by some mischievous spirit posing as their dead relatives? If this was the case I would feel a lot more sympathy for Edward.

Peter Grant wrote:

QUOTE:
LOL :laugh: But what really interests me is what happens if you follow this line of reasoning: Who is guilty of fraud in this case? Is John Edward defrauding little old ladies or is he himself, as Paul seems to be suggesting, being defrauded by some mischievous spirit posing as their dead relatives? If this was the case I would feel a lot more sympathy for Edward.

Either way he should burn in hell. Do yourself a favour and track down episode one of season one of the TV series "Bullshit" and have a look behind the scenes of "psychics" like John Edward. (If you're in Cape Town drop me a line and I can hook you up)

This whole bible-based discussion around this topic is - to me - absurd. The mechanism by which these people perpetrate their fraud is very well known - it's for the most part just cold reading. Even if we weren't sure ... just apply Occam's Razor - we have a purely man-made, well know method of pretending to be a psychic - why conjure up demons to explain it away.

Wayne de Villiers wrote:

QUOTE:
Either way he should burn in hell.

Nah, I got nothing against him personally. Can't really blame the guy for profiting from stupidity, it's such an abundant natural resource. I just find it sort of depressing that people are still so gullible. I mean, he's not even a very good mentalist!

QUOTE:
Do yourself a favour and track down episode one of season one of the TV series "Bullshit" and have a look behind the scenes of "psychics" like John Edward.

I've seen it, excellent stuff! My favourite part was where Teller, posing as the summoned soul, performs a charades act, tugging on his earlobes for "sounds like" and providing other vague hints only.

QUOTE:
(If you're in Cape Town drop me a line and I can hook you up)

Thanks for the invite. I've got to get down there soon, seems like most of the skeptics and atheists in SA are concentrated in Cape Town.

QUOTE:
This whole bible-based discussion around this topic is - to me - absurd.

Tell me about it! I do find the absurd rather entertaining though. For instance, Paul is not against mediums because they defraud people out of their money, but because they lead them into sin and endanger their immortal souls.

Peter Grant wrote:

QUOTE:
Nah, I got nothing against him personally. Can't really blame the guy for profiting from stupidity, it's such an abundant natural resource. I just find it sort of depressing that people are still so gullible. I mean, he's not even a very good mentalist!

Perhaps my "he should burn in hell" sounds harsh but I find it reprehensible that many of the people on whom he preys - especially for the expensive private sessions - are at their most vulnerable having lost a loved one.

Wayne de Villiers wrote:

QUOTE:
Perhaps my "he should burn in hell" sounds harsh but I find it reprehensible that many of the people on whom he preys - especially for the expensive private sessions - are at their most vulnerable having lost a loved one.

Good point, it must take an especially cynical bastard to pull the act off. I doubt I'd be able to keep a straight face.

Peter Grant wrote:

QUOTE:
Wayne de Villiers wrote:

QUOTE:

Indeed! When you hear a bump in the night ... why assume that since you don't believe in vampires ... it must be a troll!?

This discussion has quickly become a "my invisible friend is better than yours" discussion.

LOL :laugh: But what really interests me is what happens if you follow this line of reasoning: Who is guilty of fraud in this case? Is John Edward defrauding little old ladies or is he himself, as Paul seems to be suggesting, being defrauded by some mischievous spirit posing as their dead relatives? If this was the case I would feel a lot more sympathy for Edward.

John Edwards Sylvia Brown and the rest have developed a technique as you know and this is very obvious to you and others. They deceive for money.
There will be demon activity one way or the other for as is known demons delight in evil.

You raise a very valid point how would any one know if John Edwards was in league with demons.
Just remember one thing I am using the Scriptures as reference.I gave an example in Acts 16:16 of how the spirit was detected and then expelled.

Acts 16:19 When the owners of the slave girl realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities.

Here there is an example of how men use a person who is a medium to make money.

QUOTE:
LOL :laugh: But what really interests me is what happens if you follow this line of reasoning: Who is guilty of fraud in this case? Is John Edward defrauding little old ladies or is he himself, as Paul seems to be suggesting, being defrauded by some mischievous spirit posing as their dead relatives? If this was the case I would feel a lot more sympathy for Edward

No I did not imply that Edwards was an unsuspecting victim what is known is that one becomes partner with demons for ones own benefit.
If you take the example of Judas Iscariot who as is recorded betrayed Jesus.
Now Judas became a willing participant in the plot to arrest Jesus.

First of all he was a thief he joined the company of disciples because he saw a way of making money just like many so called ministers today.

John 12:6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

The Jews were making plans to kill Jesus
Mark 3:6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

Matthew 26:14 Then one of the Twelve the one called Judas Iscariot went to the chief priests and asked,
What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?
So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.
From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.

The devil had already prompted Judas
John 13:2 The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.

The devil then entered Judas
John 13:27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

Judas lead the arresting party to where Jesus was
John 18:2 Now Judas, who betrayed him, knew the place, because Jesus had often met there with his disciples. So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons.

Judas then worked in cahoots with the devil for his own agenda.
The devil found a willing agent.
A medium in most cases becomes an agent and as such displays powers given by demons.
Many medium learn to use this power in a sophisticated way.

CONSIDER Acts 8:9 Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, This man is the divine power known as the Great Power. They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic. But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

It is only when a person who has faith comes in contact with agents of Satan can the genuine and the false be identified.


Another example of people being influence by Satan to deceive for their own purpose.

Acts 5:1-10 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property.
With his wifes full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles feet.
Then Peter said, Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?
Didnt it belong to you before it was sold?
And after it was sold, wasnt the money at your disposal?
What made you think of doing such a thing?
You have not lied to men but to God.
When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened.
Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.
About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
Peter asked her, Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?
Yes, she said, that is the price.
Peter said to her, how could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord?
Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.
At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

People cannot blame Satan for their actions

Nice fellow Peter

I have cut and pasted extracts of verses not the whole section.
It is best to read the whole account to get the full meaning.
I use the New International Version as a translation.

As I have always stated the events in the Scriptures have to be repeated in order to prove the validity of what is written.

In most cases where money is concerned people are willing participants with demons whether they know it or not.
It is the love for money that people employ deceitful ways corruption!

2 Timothy 2:25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.



Regards
Paul Bethke

Paul Bethke wrote:

QUOTE:
how would any one know if John Edwards was in league with demons[?]

His abilities would be more impressive and not as easily explained in purely naturalistic terms.

Paul Bethke sounds like an old Testament prophet. If you accept the Bible, you cannot throw away those parts you do not like, as Wayne de Villiers aptly pointed out. Or is your imaginary friend telling you what to tell us? Don't evade Wayne's valid quote from Deuteronomy.

Check it out, here's what all this nonsense about "demons" leads to:

"Possessed" girl barred from school

georgeclaassen wrote:

QUOTE:
Paul Bethke sounds like an old Testament prophet. If you accept the Bible, you cannot throw away those parts you do not like, as Wayne de Villiers aptly pointed out. Or is your imaginary friend telling you what to tell us? Don't evade Wayne's valid quote from Deuteronomy.

I was not sure if you were addressing me personally or making a general statement.
I will accept the fact that it is me to which you have directed this statement.

You will note that I quoted another verse out of the Scriptures relating to a daughter found to be promiscuous while still living in her fathers house.

By doing this I was agreeing with the sentence that should be carried out against a son who shows such great disrespect for his parents.

I know of a man who fits the behavioural pattern of the one described in the Scriptures.
He used to get drunk and beat his mother terribly and drag her around and think that was funny.
He used to steal her pension money to buy alcohol.

If I had a son like that I would take him to the elders at the gate for them to deal with as they see fit.
What would you do?
Deut 21:21 You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
Dt 19:20 The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you.
Do this once and never again.

The whip was another means by which to teach men to be respectful.
Deut 25:2 If the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall make him lie down and have him flogged in his presence with the number of lashes his crime deserves, but he must not give him more than forty lashes.
If he is flogged more than that, your brother will be degraded in your eyes.

There was an account of a man who as the other robbed an old lady of her possessions he too beat her to the ground and kicked her in the face in order to get her to let go of her handbag.

Once the family has broken down then there is anarchy.
To prevent this it is necessary to inflict harsh punishment in order to deter others.
Fear is a great antidote to evil.

QUOTE:
Or is your imaginary friend telling you what to tell us? Don't evade Wayne's valid quote from Deuteronomy.

I agree fully with my imaginary friend and yes he is telling me what to tell you

So when the Kingdom of God my imaginary friend is established these laws will be reintroduced.

Now if my imaginary friend does not exist then no Kingdom.
But if he does exist then the Kingdom will come.

QUOTE:
Quote Sceptic South Africa is considering laying criminal charges against these schools unless these policies are immediately halted and the schools adhere to the National Policy on Religion in Education.
We are not living in Nazi Germany or the apartheid state anymore.

You see George the Apartheid state contained the laws of my imaginary friend the God of Israel so when the tables are turned the Apartheid state will once again flourish; there is nothing you can do about it.
It will be like the days of Moses and Joshua!
My imaginary friend the God of Israel only needs one man!


Again there were more laws of this God, my imaginary friend in Apartheid than in this Democratic system that now governs, in actual fact this present Democratic system has abolish the laws of my imaginary friend.
Sunday as the Sabbath
The marriage covenant renewed
The death penalty for heinous crimes
Dietary laws eating of pig.

So again if my imaginary friend exists he will no doubt re-establish these laws to begin with.
If he does not exist then nothing to worry about.

Regards
Paul Bethke

Slippery slope there Paul. The previous regime that you seem to favour also invoked religion as a butress for their belief that people of colour are inferior and that different races should not mingle. Are you passively implying that you would have those introduced as well?

And since you're so keen on reinforcing your literal acceptance of old testament "values" ... why not grab your nearest copy and reread Exodus (chapter 21 if I recall) and brush up on how God suggests you treat your slaves. You do condone slavery I assume?

Wayne de Villiers wrote:

QUOTE:
Slippery slope there Paul. The previous regime that you seem to favour also invoked religion as a butress for their belief that people of colour are inferior and that different races should not mingle. Are you passively implying that you would have those introduced as well?

And since you're so keen on reinforcing your literal acceptance of old testament "values" ... why not grab your nearest copy and reread Exodus (chapter 21 if I recall) and brush up on how God suggests you treat your slaves. You do condone slavery I assume?

It would be obvious as it was stated by George Claassen that one cannot take some and disregard other laws.

You either take them as a whole, or not at all it is called collective faith.

I must accept the wisdom of the God of Israel in the laws that he gave Moses to teach the Israelites.

Without going into too much Scriptural history whether you accept the events as valid or not, Israel was a conquering nation and as such would acquire slaves from the people they had conquered.

So if I were to have slaves I would by necessity treat them in the way described.

QUOTE:
The previous regime that you seem to favour also invoked religion as a butress for their belief that people of colour are inferior and that different races should not mingle. Are you passively implying that you would have those introduced as well?

Not passively as you state by zealously.
You must take note Wayne that I live by faith in the God of Israel whom Jesus proclaimed as the ONLY true God.

To have faith in that God would entail that I accept ALL of his commands as a way of living.

I assume you are familiar with the Scriptures although I accept the fact that you may or may not attach any validity to them.

But it would necessitate in order to explain my faith I would have to refer to the Scriptures they being the source of my knowledge.

So if you have no objection to me using a compilation of Scripture I will explain.


Regards
Paul